Schools Hesitant to Sign DoD’s MOU

[Revised December 6, 2011]

New DoD Voluntary-Education policy likely to have unintended consequences.

According to recent reports the DoD’s Voluntary Education Partnership Memorandum of Understanding policies and procedures are forcing several schools to reconsider accepting military students who wish to use their TA benefits.

The schools complain that the MOU forces participating colleges and universities to subject themselves to increased DoD inspections, payment procedures, and new rules for transferring credits between schools, granting academic credit for military training and residency requirements for servicemembers. Many schools feel that the MOU restricts their academic authority.

While the institutions of higher learning may be rightfully concerned that the MOU infringes on their academic authority, the DoD MOU also has revenue impacts that some schools may be concerned about. For example, the MOU requires schools to accept credit card payments from the DoD for tuition. Considering the costs associated with such a large balance, the impact could reduce the school’s revenue. In addition, accepting more military experience credit (ACE) recommendations and relaxing residency requirements can also hurt the bottom line.

School’s — whether for-profit or non-profit — count on their revenue to pay administrative salaries, operational expenses, and reinvest in their schools.  Not to mention that it also covers student support programs such as veteran centers, counseling services, and the added cost of processing the additional federal paperwork.

It is important to note that the DoD released a clarifying policy statement to try to soften the restrictive legal language of the MOU’s less popular restrictions and policies. However, many schools are wary of the policy statement because they fear it is non-binding. Many see the MOU as the DoD overstepping their authority. 

The issues go beyond academic authority and money.

To varying degrees many of the schools that are pushing back, already accept transfer credits, military experience (ACE) credits, take credit cards, and adhere to the Servicemembers Opportunity College (SOC) consortium guidelines and the Military Student Bill of Rights.

For many smaller schools the issue is also about not being staffed to evaluate the ACE credit recommendations or send the DoD the required information such as degree plans and course registrations in a timely manner, making it nearly impossible for them to meet the DoD’s requirements.

Many current military students stand to be hurt if the DoD cannot come to a compromise with the schools. Let’s hope they get the message before it is too late.

About the Author

Terry Howell
Before becoming the Managing Editor for, Terry served 20 years in the U.S. Coast Guard as an Aviation Electrician’s Mate and aircrewman. In his final role in the Coast Guard, Terry served as a Career Development Advisor, where he provided career, finance, education, and benefits counseling to servicemembers and their families. Since retiring from the Coast Guard, Terry has authored the book, The Military Advantage, managed the content for TurboTap, the DoD's online transition program and VAforVets, the VA's transition assistance website. Terry earned both his Bachelor's and MBA at Corban University using Military Tuition Assistance and his GI Bill benefits to help cover the cost.
  • Vet_Benefits_Watcher

    Schools also use the “income stream” to provide education and academic support for students… you left that out of the article. Many veterans need a lot of academic and transitional support to be successful in college, and that comes at a cost. If revenues are reduced, then services will be reduced as well. And don’t overlook the bigger issue for most large schools – it may take months or years to implement new academic policies and procedures; an investment of time and resources that some institutions are not willing to make for a small percentage of the student body.

    • Steven

      As a soon to be retired military officer with a several graduate degrees from some of the more prestigious “schools” in this country, I have struggled with this issue to no end. I have wanted to rant obscenely at these administrators about the BS system that has been around for so long that we have just accepted it. I’m not sure academic and transitional support is the justification for the blatant gamesmanship these colleges and universities impose on students, military or not.

      • Brian

        All I have to say is that the schools need to STOP crying put on the big boy undies get the money out of their a** and sign the MOU SOLDIERS who are willing to DIE for this country should be enititled to higher education at VERY VERY little to NO cost at all the MILITARY is providing that. AND YES ITS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT THEY HAVE MORE AUTHORITY you stupid college directors

    • tdhowell

      Very good point VBW – I added a note to the original post. Thank you.

    • majmom

      Thanks for your comments – obviously presented from a more informed, less emotional perspective than other comments. I am a veteran, and I am fortunate to be attending a school that embraces its veterans warmly. Their tight budget keeps getting tighter as state budgets shrink. I have to hope these changes don’t negatively affect them – finances for all higher educational institutions are stretched already.
      As far as the article’s last line: “all colleges and universities are driven by the same financial motive to keep costs down and income up,” aren’t we all?

  • NikkiSC

    Yes, follow the money. I believe these institutions should be held to a higher standard. I work in a college and most staff’s hate to deal with VA students. I don’t think it’s fair to Vets and active-duty personnel and I am glad myself for the new contracts. Fed dollars are fed dollars no matter the form they come in.

  • Lucy

    This article is absolutely right about the money. These schools have been ripping off the government and the students for way too long. The government has been paying the bill and the students have been wasting time and effort. It would be interesting to see the data for the last 10-15 years!

    • bravo7

      The schools need to remember. It is the soldier who who gave them the right to be open and educate the people of america not the ceo’s or the deans. If they wanna complain then let them serve in combat and feel what we feel. They do make alot of money from their own sources.

  • student

    I completly agree with you…I’m currently having to retake courses at AMU because they didn’t accept my transfer credits. I will have to focus on my higher courses then come back and take all the lower level courses that I achieved a C in. Yeah brilliant strategy these schools have to rob the student and the government.

    • Actually, I wouldn’t be surprise that they aren’t trying to ‘punish’ us vets, for making a statement against what most of these Ivy League schools advocated. Its another way of showing the “I told you” syndrome that is prevalent in most colleges.



  • military spouse

    I consider it an honor to service our veterans and help them achieve their goals in higher learning. That is the very least I feel that I can do for them and my husband served for 28 years…I have been on both sides of the desk. Hey NikkiSC…remind your co-workers that they wouldn’t have an opinion if it weren’t for our men and women in uniform. It should be a privilege to go that extra step for veterans as well as any other student trying to better themselves. Some people need to find another career…there are plenty of military friendly schools for our vets….

  • Rob

    You should really proof read your articles before posting them.

    • tdhowell

      Feedback accepted.

  • NavyDad

    If these edu-weasels like their political and national liberty as much as they tout their academic freedom, then they should suck it up and help support the young men and women who have taken the fight to the enemy. Those schools who won’t do so, should be boycotted.

    BS, MA, MDiv with three sons on active duty

    • Ronin

      Great Post! :)

    • eve

      hey, great response. i’m trying to get in navy, can u get them to email me? i’m looking for true email address is

  • amen

    Small minded. You get paid for what you do. A va student pays via fed dollars,a student pays by visa,same fees. If va student not taking a spot another student will. A va student already did the work and can test out of a class, give him credit,just like any other student coming from a different institution. The college has no guarantees on students per year.

    • Vet_Benefits_Watcher

      Not quite. At many institutions, if a student pays for tuition with a credit card, the student also pays the credit card surcharge. If the government pays with a credit card, they don’t pay the credit card surcharge. They require the school to absorb the surcharge. At my state institution, this type of fee cannot be covered by the institution’s tuition, it must be covered by student fees. So the school would have to increase the fees it charges to all students to cover the government’s mandatory credit card transactions. VISA is the company that makes the most money — and I wonder whose pockets are being lined in that deal.

      • BofA

        Can you say BofA bailout?

    • USA_Ret

      Credit cards are not the deal breaker, DOD allows a waiver for check payments to schools, although they’ve stated schools will need to wait six months to get paid. The problem is that the entire MOU invades how schools conduct business and academics, and many are not willing to give up that autonomy to DOD.

  • SSG Ret Bill Douglas

    Sometime the Obama Admistration just plan old sucks. I can see see and understand both points of views. Typically though the democrats have always CUT the defense budget with slick tricks.

    • OIF – Career Vet

      Apparently you didn’t go outside the wire making minimum wage like military pay while….don’t blink…contractors made money fist over cuff in the comfort of our security. KBR, Haliburton, etc. Comes to mind and that’s a conservetive deal there. Obama, Obama, Obama. Get a clue Sarge…no administration has gotten it right as far as the military is concerned. Oboma has work to so but he has been no worse than his repub and dem predecessors.

    • Alex

      That’s just pure BS. Just like how school like to rip student off, i believed in the best interest of our defecit problem, we must find area to reduce cost. Hence, the schools should accept more military college credits. However, most colleges has their rules or policy on how many college credit a transfer student should do before graduate. My question are you here to have the government spend they way out? Where are our patriotism?

      • trygve

        Many of these schools that freely are accepting of Military college credits or giving credits away willy-nilly are diploma mills anyways and causing the ones that worked and paid for each and every credit to have to hold their hands in the workplace. There are those of us that have our degrees paid for by federal dollars from one DoD program or another, but never asked for credits for attending a first-aid course or for learning how to properly throw a grenade. There is a hugh difference in the curriculum taught in the military and at a 4-yr school. My military time helped me to learn college material easier as i had information to relate it to, or further expound upon, but never would i have expected a class i took while active, to be counted for college credits. That is just plain laziness. ALSO — enjoy your 4 yrs of college, and don’t try to rush through it! It was some of the best times of my life! (as were many of my deployments, but a different type of fun)

        • Brian

          Shut up and STOP crying you big baby

      • Brian

        Dude not to be rude but ********, where did you take English classes????????

        • Brian


  • The Mac

    Hey Rob~

    Proofread is one word.

    Living in a glass house…throwing stones…

    • student

      Good Burn

    • HeadBang

      Homophones still get through spell check. Editor must be on vacation.

  • Former Student

    I guess that balanced reporting doesn’t count for anything any more. You paint the issue as money grubbing, yet it isn’t the for-profit schools that are complaining, but rather the non-profit ones. Wouldn’t one expect the for-profit institutions be complaining more if the true issue was money? Rather, we’re seeing the non-profits take issue with the Department of Defense meddling in academic policies. Will the DoD be dictating curriculum next? Our hard won freedoms should not be taken away simply because the military establishment says they should, even for those who have sacrificed the most. Otherwise what are we fighting for?

    With the rules and regulations come a whole host of requirements, check boxes, and forms. We complain that it is unfair to students, but rather than point to those creating arduous regulations and rules (the DoD), we blame the schools for not wanting the hassle. Maybe we should be asking the DoD to simplify the requirements to open education opportunities for students, rather than advocating for them to continue to meddle in non-military, domestic affairs.

    • steve

      As long as honesty and accountabilty is assured, nothing wrong with the DoD’s request? On the otgher hand any DoD academic policies infringement are unacceptable. When I received my BA and MS it was kept very simple, and there was no use of credit cards for tuition payments. Once again the UGLY head of FEES, for use of credit cards is reflecting the profit margin???
      Most Universities do not operate under that theivery……..

    • HeadBang

      I’d have to side by the DOD on this one. Consider that most of the training the military provides is ACE accredited in one fashion or another. A large issue is these schools don’t recognize informal education in that it wasn’t WASC approved or similar. The battle lies between accreditation authorities. ACE, WASC, and individual state institutions. DOD is in the power as a parent with a checkbook, ensuring the student gets the real value and not fritter their benefits on duplicate knowledge and wasted time. Vocational learning does account for more than non-for profit organizations desire to acknowledge.

    • dan

      Make no mistake, “non-profit” academic institutions are just as concerned about their financial bottom line as any corporation. Harvard, for example, gets enough federal money through grants and other programs that it covers their costs entirely ($400 million in 2004). That’s right, tuition paid to Harvard sits in a bank. No wonder their $6 billion endowment is the largest in the world…But they love to point to the size of their endowment as a measure of their “prestige.” (Thomas Sowell, Economic Facts and Fallacies)

    • Brian


  • Phantomphixer

    I would also like to thank the congress and the President for, essentially, writing off all the vets over the age of 60. I am 69 and decided to go back to school for the spring semester of 2011.I am now in my third semester and paying for it myself. It sort of goes along with Senator McCain trying to screw the vets on medicare. Yet again!

    • Phantomphixer

      I guess I’m showing my age; I meant to say “medical care” and not medicare.

    • SP/5-LCDR Ret.

      I guess you live in the wrong state. Arkansas has a program for old people (not just Vets) like me. If you are over sixty, you still have to pay student fees and for books, but you do not pay tutition.

      • Retired E-8

        In Oklahoma you pay for it all. I’m 56 and am currently enrolled at Oklahoma State University and I’m chipping away at my degree one class at a time. There is no scholarship money or government grants for us old Vets that no longer have their GI Bill. At $800 a class (the last one that I just paid for) the road to a degree is slow. We’ll get there but we’ve come to realize that not the state nor the Federal Government will help us old Vets. It’s just the way it is.

    • ali

      I did not know you all were having to pay for school..They forget I guess your never to old to learn…There was a man who graduated last sem. who was 90. Huh Im going to look into this I had no idea thought every vet. got it.

    • grad student

      at 69 you should be eligible (in most states) for free or reduced tuition…no offense..based on Senior citizen discounts..some places require you to be check around…admirable of you to return to school! good luck

    • Dennis Habern

      It is a pity that John McCain, of all people, has written an official letter

      to “DEMAND” a $200.00 annual payment for retirees to pay, for some

      feature of TRICARE. Perhaps it was TRICARE PRIME. Similar to Obama,

      he is just another traitor whose silver hair has now earned McCain the

      title of “Silver Tongue,” similar to Obama. Perhaps they are twins, what

      do you think?

    • the schools are denying this cause they want the control to raise tuition prices just like they did recently. Honestly this sounds to be a great way to protect those of us who served. Schools only want the federal money but don’t want to go thru what it should take to earn the money the government offers.

      • 7 Deadly SINS

        GREED will be the FALL of the USA!!!!!!!

    • Brian

      I hate to say this but its never going to change, it just keeps getting worse

  • gunter

    May be those schools should reduce the salary of their presidents to be able to budget for the questionable short fall. PS Do you know that most University presidents make in excess to $ 500,000.00 annually ??

    • Brian

      Yea they Def could afford to pay for some of the shortfalls.

  • Gunter

    Do you know that most University presidents make in excess of $ 500,000.00 annually , curtail their earnings to cover the questionable short fall.

  • wick10

    Our local Branch University Campus here takes great pride in their diversity and the admission of Illegals when Veterans can not find space. Here they go so far as to advertise Free Parking, Free Dinner and Free Spanish instruction in how to get into College, pay for it and graduate. If the amount of funds spent by State, Federal or even Charitable contributions were not used on Illegals and instead devoted to Americans; which includes Veterans; there would be no questions and or shortage of funds. Here they are so anti Military they preach from the podium that the US Military; since they can not meet recruiting goals(?); wants illegals to join the military and die in Iraq and Afghanistan for America. If such falsehoods can not be reversed we are doomed.

    • texan

      Can you prove that illegal were admited to join military forces for recent deployments? About illegals is just a political story form politicians who want our people to be distracted form how Veterans need to be treated fairly.

    • Kat Ferguson

      I think not only is accepting illegals into a college/university unpatriotic but it’s the height of greed & insane beyond my imagination. Since when is it ok to be or accept anything illegal?

  • Instructor

    I work at a well-known and well-respected university. My school’s beef with the MOU is that one provision stipulates that the school cannot change the curriculum requirements within five years of the changes taking effect,. My school makes changes (most of them minor; “Course X no longer counts for academic requirement 1, effective next year you have to take course Y”) every year and simply cannot agree to DoD’s requirements. The short suspense is also a huge problem. The MOU was published in June 2011, on the Federal Register, but nobody here took notice until around six weeks ago. Who scans the Federal Register for earth-shattering changes like this? Effective 10 JAN 2012, 190 or so soldiers at my school getting TA from DoD are going to be told that DoD won’t be paying their Tuition Assistance. This policy seems rushed and not well thought out.

    • grad student

      As a student I have dealt with the sudden changes in curriculum…in fact my husband just transferred after contacting the school a year before transfer and during that time an entire year of course was added to the degree he transferred into…but no one told him this and the information was not available until after he had made the transfer…now we are stuck here for 3 years instead of 2…and on the GI bill that will soon run out…but would have been enough had the school not up and changed the requirements…this is just another scam by the schools..and this time they are stealing tax payer money…for shame! a similar thing happened to me with regard to math requirements…it has cost me thousands of extra dollars…not fair

      • jerry

        I agree, my degree took awhile to finish as i was deployed quite abit, when i went to take my last four classes, I found out that two of my classes no longer counted so i had to go an extra semester to take two classes that added no value.

    • Brian


    • Mark

      Yes I have seen schools like your “well respected university” that change their curriculum almost as fast as most people change their clothing. I have seen a neice of mine change universities only to find that many of her classes were not accepted. Using the same exact book and after taking the class found it to be a carbon copy of what she took before. Yup… they change their curriculum and requirements daily to STEAL money from their students. Everything has to be done again… talk about repetition… when you change schools…. CLEARLY A MONEY GRAB. The scam for more money comes first while the student comes LAST.

  • ET2-Reservist

    Let’s see…. non-profit institutions (state schools) pay their football coaches muti-million dollar contracts that are paid with our tax money. I wonder how many people actually know this little fact. I do not hear anyone complaining about the coaches getting contracts worth 2 -4 million a year. And now the schools have the audacity to complain about the DoD wanting accountability over the money that the schools are getting?

    • Marcus Sugg

      Well, no screamin’ eagles! That would never do for that perspective to be considered!

      GySgt of Marines

    • somepeople

      Im not sure where you made up the information in your post but the schools that pay their coaches the multi-million dollar salaries get the money from revenue generated by a successful football program and from alumni donations. I sleep good at night knowing none of my tax money goes to paying football coaches at the college level.

    • Dr. Peter Skirbunt

      You’re jumping to erroneous conclusions. We’re not talking about people in uniform attending a major, state-tax supported university with a major sports program. Most of the schools involved field no teams at all. They are small schools like Central Texas College and Saint Leo U. (Fla.) and they hold night classes at bases all over the world, helping active-duty military (and family) get a college education. Please don’t badmouth the small, dedicated schools who are trying to help our servicemembers get a college degree.

      • Brian


        • Heather

          Perhaps your school will some day teach you not to write in all caps. Then I might consider it a decent school. You should really show some respect. The Dr. has done something you’ll likely never do, which is complete a degree. Ashworth is just another degree mill that everyone is complaining about. Find an actual university and learn what education truly is.

          • Frank

            Heather, you are wrong, Ashworth is a regionally accredited college…not a degree mill, and before you say it, I am not associated with Ashworth in any way. Educated people check their facts before they speak. Thanks.

    • What kind of degree program requires a course in “Motivation and Leadership”???? I’ve never heard of such a thing. Is your school accredited???

  • Piper

    Perhaps you might be a little less quick to jump on the college-bashing bandwagon if you actually sat in the job of someone who was responsible for processing payment for all the various different military programs accepted at universities. Not only am I a military wife of a full-time active-duty doctoral student on tuition assistance, but I work at a fairly conservative medium-to-large state university with over 30,000 students and we have been designated as a military-friendly school. Because of austerity measures in our state, we have had a long-term hiring freeze in addition to deep personnel cuts, so there was (and still is), only ONE person that handles military accounts–that is the Vietnam Era GI Bill–yes, we still have those veterans attending school, Montgomery, Chapter 33, Chapter 31, TA programs for active-duty from the base closest to the university, direct placements from AFIT, language programs, state-specific programs for military, and those are just the ones I can list off the top of my head–each one has a totally different process for reimbursement. This person manages over 1000 military/veteran student accounts.

    Anyone who has been in or affiliated with any branch of the military knows that the DoD can create more angst with the sheer breadth of paperwork required to be approved to sneeze with permission. The DoD expects civilians to understand their jargon without additional explanation and adapt to their ever changing and evolving processes without prior notice. The DoD also has no problem asking a university to go an entire semester waiting to be reimbursed for thousands of dollars of tuition because the total invoice request wasn’t on the latest version of a particular form that no one knew existed, or finding out that DoD person that handles your school has PCSd, not to be replaced for another six months. Trust me, it is MUCH easier to get payment from your ordinary student than it is from the DoD.

    As far as the transfer credit, many schools try to give a fair evaluation, but military experience while incredibly valuable in developing certain qualities and skill sets, doesn’t always translate well to the classroom. Some university accrediting bodies prohibit accepting particular types of classes or life/work experience for transfer, so the institution couldn’t accept those credits without jeopardizing their accreditation and cheapening the degree. Some of the requests for transfer credit received have been ludicrous–like one student who wanted full credit for a Middle Eastern fine art and culture course simply because he was stationed in Iraq for a year. Once we ascertained that the only art he viewed was some really poor graffiti and that he rarely left the secure post/base where he spent his deployment, his request was denied. Perhaps I might try that argument the next time I ask to skip pilot training because I have lots of frequent flier miles from riding on commercial aircraft as a passenger.

    Do military and veterans deserve to be treated with respect and assisted with achieving their educational goals by the universities that they choose to attend? ABSOLUTELY. My husband has been deployed twice for a period of 17 months during his education and the school has been very good to work with, but working out the changing rules and regulations between the VA and our Bursar’s office has been frustrating.

    The DoD needs to meet the educational institutions halfway and get out of their bubble. If the DoD wants to completely dictate educational policy, code of conduct, and transfer credits, then perhaps they might discuss allowing these vets to attend the military universities of each service. The truth is somewhere in the middle and universities and the DoD could BOTH do better at serving the vets that served their country.

    • John

      If you don”t like it then don’t take mil. students. Then you can get rid of some more people With big pay. If you don’t like a job quit . Life has no guarantees.
      One must go with the flow.

    • ali

      Befor reading your comment and a few others. I was in the middle and still am I see what your coming from and the way you explained the military made me laugh because it is so very true. But also at the same time someone that was a bilingist in the military speaks fluent in say two should he or she have to retake spanish , but you could also say that for someone who grew up speaking both. So maybe have a test most anyone can take and if they can get every ? right they pass the class. My husband was in rolled in school without them being paid for a few months, but they also got the money from someone else who even the school don’t know who it was. Either way I still think they should get some credits for on some things not all of course. My husband and father soon will be able to use there credits which will help them get done with school faster so hopfully get a good job sense being in the military don’t get you a job after like you are told lol. Last word either way anyone past or present that serves there country deserves more then joe and dan who are drinking there way threw college and don’t do a darn thing for anyone but them selfs most there life.

    • Ike

      As a business owner, is am well aware of the bottom line. But if I want to do business with the Government, I must meet the requirements.

      Obviously servicing vets is a lucrative business, otherwise the colleges and universities would just say no.

    • cel

      You got it flat out wrong. DoD is just trying to make sure that the government fund is not wasted. they are not completely dictating educational policies. They just want to ensure equitable treatment of service members and veterans. The militarty has the best equal opportunity in the world. DoD policies are framed by politicians. Military and vets are bound to follow these policies. If DoD feels that their students need to be spot checked (check attendance , follow directives, policies).., then by all means they have rights to do so. Now if you don’t want to take military/vets students, no one compels you to do so. Do you think service members/vets want to be micro-managed? By the way I have two master’s degree and a doctoral student too. good luck to your hausband…

      • JAC

        Two master’s and you are a doctoral student (I’m assuming the last part because I don’t know how you can “have” a doctoral student.) I can guess you weren’t an English major……guess you normally use Spell check.

        • Dan

          What did this comment have to do with the topic….guess YOU didn’t learn that is school.

      • Heather


    • Brian

      I appreciate a lot of what you are saying, and I will be the first to admit that regularly military beuacracy mucks things that should be simple up. That being said creditcard transactions are generally a lot easier for the military to manage and may actually assist with the payment problems you mention.

      Also I understand that some people try and talk there way around certain classes, but colleges most deffinately try to avoid taking any extra credits. Perhaps this is because of obvious past scams suchas the one you mentioned, but I attended an in depth 9 month long b school that encompassed a lot of math all the way to the calculus level as well as computers and electronics. The math portion was taught by college instructors from Jacksonville community college. I can pull out all the tests I took while I atteneded this school and show an average above 90%. I studied my ass off, but the transcript I was promised from community college of jacksonville deos not include grades so no college that I have put in for will give me any credits. So damn annoying. Perhaps a few changes in the way credits are evaluated will help.

      • Shaun

        That class certainly did not help you in the ways of grammar, spelling, capitalization, and punctuation!!

        • Brian

          If you could read I suppose you might notice I mentioned it was mathmatics. Excellent display of reading comprehension.

    • CPT Thompson

      I have worked for the univerisities admissions offices also while working with ROTC- and it is true – you truly are overwhelmed and underpaid. God bless you for taking care of us. The information that you are expected to learn and with all the rapid changes are too much for one person to learn and implement.

    • carl f

      you may still have vietnam era students but the college isnt receiving any dod from them, that program ended years ago, I know I was one of em.

    • Frank

      I am totally in agreement with the comments above.

      I am a veteran from the liberation of Granada ( may be some one still remembers the Mili. operation in the Carebean), the operation in Panama, Desert Storm-Desert Shield and as of this note, I have yet to requested any help from the Veterans Affairs Dept.

      What those this has to do with the agenda? everything!!

      Being a veteran does not means to be catered to in everyway, the schools and colledges are doing everything they can to accomodate the needs of the veterans, their familly’s and children.

      There is no need for the D O D to push the envelope, the school should continue to develope their own policy’s and procedures.

      When if ever has the D O D, or any Fed. agency made a monetary contribution to any higher education school?
      The schools and universities thrive in part by the generocity of many State Will’s and generouse donations.

      My take to D.O.D, Back off, keep your promise to make payments on time, and let the schools Manage their Operations.

    • parkchunghee2011

      Piper admits to being dependent on increased funds for the school to maintain her own personal job. Hard to pay a lot of attention to what she says when she comes from such a biased perspective.

      and one more thing:

      Piper states an example of how transferring college credit for military students is subject to criticism. She states,

      “Some of the requests for transfer credit received have been ludicrous–like one student who wanted full credit for a Middle Eastern fine art and culture course simply because he was stationed in Iraq for a year.”

      If Piper is really a serious doctoral candidate, she would know that such exaples, although entertaining, are merely anecdotal and establish nothing, even by legitimate academic and research standards.

      Her comments are anecdotal and self-serving, and they give the false impression that there is a justification for institutions to not accept military experience and education.

      • JAC

        And if you would reread her comment, you would see that she is the spouse of a doctoral candidate. She’s telling it like it is. Whether you choose to believe it or not. I think the example is entertaining and most people would know that it is a one-time thing. Get over yourself.

    • supercoolbone

      I concure with your comments. There seems to be an outbreak of “sheer ignorance” among our patriots. And I might add that there appears to be a “Federal-Government” arrogance (if you will) among our active and retired ranks. The reason why our accredited universities and colleges are so vital to our American society is because these institutions have avoided (up to now) the stronghold of government mediocrity. In order for any university to uphold and protect its academic integrity, our own federal government and any other outside power cannot manipulate or alter the institution’s curriculum in any way. When the President sends a bill to Congress, the bill usually comes out of Capitol Hill completely overhauled to fit the goals of our elected officials’ corporate and private interests. Let us not allow the same government “song and dance” to ever alter the principled tutelage of our beloved universities.

    • Dennis Habern

      As far as getting out of their bubble, I think that academia is fearful

      that military authority will not only uncover discretions that have been in

      vogue for many years, but individuals will be held accountable, a feature

      that runs rampant in academia’s bureaucracy.

      • Dennis Habern

        Correction to Dennis Habern’s statement above:

        “a feature that runs rampant in academia’s bureaucracy,”

        should read: “a feature that does not run rampant in academia’s


    • El Mexicano

      You are right administration costs are too excessive look at any other large organization. What I do not understand with so much technology around do not see how costs continue to go up? If anything would not cut jobs in administration but should be one field that should be stable or going down in my opinion.
      Good review from someone on the ground.
      Don’t get me started on tuition.

    • Fair enough.

    • OSD

      Just think if the democratic machine would stop enlarging Office of Sec Defense to fill a wing at the Pentagon, maybe there wouldn’t be so many Civilian Employees with little or no personal military experience making this kind of policy. When it comes to tax payer money, too much of it is left in the Metropolitan District of Washington D.C.

    • Neva

      I think that people are bashing the DoD vice the actual institutions. Only becuase the changes that are being made by the DoD are hindering the hand of the institutions and essentially ruining a really great thing that so many of our military are taking advantage of. I know I’m not finding fault with my institution but rather dissappointed at the strigent standards being set forth before them.


    WHO GETS IT THE MOST? THE MILITARY THAT USES TA. I cannot see larger institutions having a problem with this one- as they get their revenue from a large-stream pool of students from all over- they are the ones that doesn’t necessarily need to have the military TA money to maintain their revenue stream. The smaller institutions which caters to their prized military customers are going to have to change or else watch their loyal customers change to larger institutions. However, who gets it the most- the military customer- esp if they are close to a degree at whatever level at whatever instuition and being told that the DoD is now playing hardball with its money to their university and they may have to pay out of pocket or use their GI Bill that might be slated for other family members to finish their degree with their university because no university is all the credit hours from someone who is, say, 2 classes short of a degree without milking that student for at least another 15-30 semester hours before they issue that student a degree- even if that military student is a straight A+ student. Gotta love being on active duty.

  • Rob

    I know that getting TA has progressively gotten more difficult over the passt decade. 10 years ago, I could walk in to the education office for my basse fill out a 1 page form, and recieve TA. Now I have have to file a degree plan, I have to get approval letters from my primary college that they will accept a class from a different college as transfer credit and more. All of these changes were made without notification at all. I didn’t find out about these changes until I tried to file for TA at the next semester registration period. I’ve been blocked from registering because the process of getting all this done to get TA took too long. Is it any surprise that colleges got very little notice?

  • Rob

    I don’t even see the point in this MOU anyway. A class costs a certain amount, which varies from college to college. It costs the same for military members as it does for civilians. What the college does with that money is their business, not the military’s. It would be different if colleges charged additional amount for TA users, but they don’t, they charge me the same as they would my civilian sister. This is just another example of changes to the TA system that make getting a degree harder for military members, nmot easier or more accountable.

  • texan

    Again, organizations trying to take advantage. How can these called universities cannot accept military training when we have the best armed forces in the world. Our services members do real jobs and had better training than those taught in the classes. These inescrupulous organizations just want to sqeeze more money form tax payers, veterans and servidce members.

    • notaTexan

      They can decline to accept military training for credit because most military training has very little academic rigor. Nearly every military course I have attended has been a cakewalk. Instructors teach the test and every window-licking ‘special’ student gets spoon fed the answers. These “unscrupulous” (which I assume was the word you were looking for) organizations have an obligation to their alumni and trustees to ensure their reputation is not sullied by conferring degrees on people who have not earned them.

    • tim

      maybe if you had attended a kollige you would be able to spell out your frustration a little cleeerer.

    • Jared

      My military classes (Navy Hospital Corpsman) were a joke compared to the classes I’m taking at UC San Diego. If my ACE credits were accepted, I would be far behind the rest of my classmates. This is why not all colleges accept all ace credits. However, after attending 6 schools, I have noticed that all colleges give credit to servicemembers for physical education GE’s

    • 4N051

      If you guys attended a Real AIT then maybe they wouldn’t have been a cakewalk. 4N0 training from the Air Force was less than a cakewalk, we worked hard and those skills are what we use to save lives in the real world, that transfers over no matter how you look at it.

      • prdtob

        typical air force no matter the context of the conversation you feel the need to beat your chest. we all know that you aren’t allowed to do very much.

    • Lynn3765 depends on the program. For example, you can’t take someone running infantry form the Army and automatically expect most of the service credits to transfer into say, an information technology program..there has to be some correlation. I counseled an E-4 who was working as a yeoman. She was livid because the university she wanted to go to wouldn’t accept most of her credits for the degree specific classes. She was going for a law degree and honestly thought she had enough credits to just about finish the undergrad portion. What she had was enough credits to get most of the general education requirements handled but she had little to no background in actual law for the 300 and 400 level courses. She wa slooking at overall credits attained and not where they actually applied.

  • candice

    “May be those schools should reduce the salary of their presidents to be able to budget for the questionable short fall. PS Do you know that most University presidents make in excess to $ 500,000.00 annually ??”
    -Agreed!!! In addition schools should accept all general education credits transferred from any other state university…the fact that one math or science at one state level school that is good enough for graduation does not transfer to another state university of similar academic accreditation is absolutely ridiculous! How can these basic courses be completely useless just by crossing a state line? c’mon man!

  • 1CAV

    I’m sorry I disagree with the admin personnel who is complaining because her work load has increase- be thankful you have a job!!! Honestly, you know as well as I that your organization needs to hire more people; don’t take it out on active or retired service-members. One would think you would be more understanding since your a dependant but maybe your not very supportive of him too. He may or may not have to deploy or maybe not as much as others but if he did- I’m sure it would be something he keeps to him-self!!!

  • 1CAV

    It’s funny but said at the same time! To all my brothers and sisters who served his or her country I feel your pain. We have given so much and given up so much, how quickly do they forget or look away… Make no mistake- it’s all about money!!! They want to suck every dime they can get from you- even the admin person is complaining because she wants a raise!!! The trip thing is… How could they try to take way or not give us credit for all the training we are required to take and all class hours we complete (some on deployments, some @ home) – how could that mean nothing? We did that under favorable condition and unfavorable condition. Its sucks, its like robbing you blind, first your time then your money now our education!!!

    • kurt

      WE ARE ALL VOLUNTEERS. The benefits are a bonus.

  • Kat Ferguson

    Gee whizz, these colleges are being ridiculous. No higher learning institution worth their salt should utter the words I’ve read here. Military students are not the cornerstone of their institution – what I’ve read here equals greed, pure & simple.

  • Raymond Donahue

    I feel for you guys. I was lucky. I attended college on bases and received TA
    for my classes. I had no problems at all. I also received a AA in Electronics
    Technology from Phoenix for my training in the Navy. I

    • kurt

      People that cannot get it done are just lazy and want someone else to do it for them. It is a simple process that hasn’t changed in years.

  • Meliza Simmons

    does this also affect reserve soilders who have not gone active? I plan to enlist in less than a month….helllllllpppp. I want my education, college is 5 months away :(

    • kurt

      It’s nothing to worry about. You will still get TA and the GI Bill.

    • DOC

      BLUF – It applies to everyone.

      More importantly, this makes me question your motives to enlist.
      If you want to serve…serve. If getting less education benefits will be a deal breaker, then don’t join, take out more student loans, and protest with the other 99% of people who chose not to serve.
      We are getting less and less resources in the military, we don’t need someone who is in it only for themselves.

      • K. Crawford

        The right to protest is a right granted by the US Constitution, a right that we take oath to defend. But you clearly belittle this right as if it had less weight as a right than other rights do. As a veteran I gladly support those who choose to make their discomforts known by nonviolent protest and I don’t care who assembles over what message. There are a ton of people who see the service as a means to an ends and end up learning a ton about Americanism and Patriotism along the way. There are a ton of soldiers who join to serve and end up in Leavenworth. But either way this young citizen chooses to go your comments won’t prove helpful. Teach, MENTOR, lead…

  • Master

    I think your article should be reviewed again. You say it cost the schools money for using the Govt Credit Card. Give me a break. They still receive money for that students attending. And not to split hairs, but how does everyone else pay. I have over 274 Ace accredited college points and all my school would accept is six of them. Hello, thats costing the govt and myself lots of time and money. There seems to be a lot of smoke and mirrors on this subject. I have a great idea. Why don’t we send all of the bean counting administrators in theater next time we need someone to sacrifice their time and possibly life for their country.

  • Ms. X

    I redeployed from a 15 month tour in Iraq almost two years ago and when I arrived at my current location I finally saw a window of opportunity to complete my degree. I am currently on transition leave (85 days) and I am stationed on a remote base so we need to go to Ft Knox to out-process, ACAP, etc.. When I in-processed the Ed center here, they got set me up in Go ARMY and assisted me with selecting a degree plan. When I signed up for the plan, my RCP was 31 Jan 2012. My final class begins on 7 Dec 11 and I graduate on 21 Feb 12. Because this is a remote base, when i came time for me to out-process, I was forced to clear here first, then drive 7 hours to Knox to complete my final out. This is a small base but we have over 700 Soldiers stationed here and we still don’t have a Military Personnel Division set up yet for whatever reason.

  • Ms X

    To my surprise, when I cleared the Ed center, they stated that once I cleared there, all of my Go Army entitlements would cease, which meant that I would have to either drop the current class I was in or pay for the full amount and I would also have to pay for my final class even though I will still be on active duty for 7 of the 9 weeks of the class. They decided to allow me to complete the current class but stated that I would need to pay for my final class. I wasn’t informed about this until I was clearing. After reading the regulation with them(AR 621-5), I also learned that the Education Counselor is required to give all those who are separating or transitioning from the military a counseling concerning their educational benefits and they are supposed to monitor their progress in Go Army throughout their course of studies to ensure they are on course. The bottom line is that the Ed center says that I have to pay out of pocket for this final class because Go Army will not pay for the class because the regulation states that in order for them to pay for the course, the end date has to be before I out-processed.

  • Ms X

    I think this is a bunch of crap because the Ed center and Go Army approved my current degree plan and they knew when I was scheduled to graduate and they obviously knew what the regulation stated, so why allow me to take that particular plan. Some people think I should have known better but the fact of the matter is that people don’t retire everyday so there is no way that I would have known about this especially since we only get a retirement briefing once we are at FT Knox, then it’s too late. If I had known about this I would have doubled up on a class along the way to make sure I completed the course at the prescribed time. I thought that since the class started on 7 Dec 2011 and I still had funds available for TA it would be ok, but I guess this doesn’t matter. I gave my 911 to my sons and I don’t qualify for veterans benefits because I am still on active duty. I can pay for the class but I don’t think I should have too. I think I will speak to the IG, unless someone else has any other suggestions?

    • kurt

      When I cleared I had to drop classes, use the GI Bill or personally pay. This has never changed. I should have been more alert to it or willing to use my GI Bill as that is what it is there for. There is no use complaining, ultimately you are in the process of retiring, should have given it some more thought or not given away your GI Bill.
      It is honestly tiring to read how people feel ‘entitled’ to things when they are lucky to have any benefits at all. Its always someone else’s fault.

    • RetiredCB

      when you either separate or retire, and you started a class that ends after your separation / retired date, you have to either return the money, or use the GI bill. As Kurt stated this has always been so. Read the paper work before you sign it, it is stated in there. good luck

      • JAC

        So you’re going to tell the IG that you didn’tunderstand the rules and thus didn’t follow them and you what them to do what exactly????

    • curtis

      Sounds like you’re a retard who didn’t read the rules for the program you were participating in. Good luck with life. The civilian world won’t hold your hand like we do in the military. All the best.

    • NoNamePlease

      This has absolutely nothing to do with the DOD MOU. It has been the rule since the beginning of military TA. TA rules have not changed.
      You made the choice to give away your 9/11 benefits, then you live with the consequences and pay out of pocket for your own education.
      On a related subject … If you go back to the original intent of the GI Bill, it was to educate veterans so they could find jobs and reintegrate back into society after serving their country….when did it become the responsibility of the VA to pay not only for the veterans’ education, but their spouse and children?

    • vnoifvet

      Wow!!!! With all that background experience and you still have that ugly
      attitude? It appears to me that by what you said, YOU didn’t do your homework properly. YOU should of have done a little more research before committing to sign any paper work, now, after finding out you made a terrible mistake, you’re trying to put the blame on someone else rather than accept responsibility for your own actions. You want to write to the IG and tell them how ignorant (to avoid calling you stupid) you were when you signed the paperwork? What’s done is done and move on.

    • Luis Robles

      Agree with you on that.

  • JAC

    Universities have taken credit cardsfor years and I doubt that it “has a huge effect on the school’s bottom line”. State universities also accepted transfer credits if they are valid. Nothing new here. Some of the courses given for military experience are worthless to an established college or university. The higher standards ensure the integrity of the awarded diploma.

  • Sam

    Let me just say this, the credit card surcharge is not greater than the sum. I would imagine that if one is concerned about the bottom line, a profit is still a profit until it is equal or less than the fee. This is no excuse! you either lose all TA recipients or you pay a minimal fee to increase revenue because with out it you have a loss. This is not rocket science. Administrators are just terrified to change the status quo. Service Men and women are entering post secondary environment at a record pace not seen by our generation. This changes things for the college environment since a fraction of the population is now becoming a large minority coupled with the scars of war. The veteran/service member that attends school is making good on his or her investments to be able to attend. If universities are not up to par to serve this population at large then other mechanisms have to be created to incentivise this change. But please realize the worrying about the bottom line is not the real issue, they are getting Millions from the veteran community, and ultimately they fear change.

    • Vet_Benefits_Watcher

      Actually, at a state school where the total TA population is less than 1% of the student body, it wouldn’t make any difference at all if the school simply stopped accepting TA recipients. Why should the school have to spend more time and money on TA students? Respectable, public institutions do it because it’s the right thing to do. They want to serve those who have served. Mil/vets are good students, and it’s good for the community to welcome them onto a college campus. But if push comes to shove and something’s got to give, schools will cut the services they provide to the smallest populations on campus – and that would be the military students.

      I think the point that the author is trying to make is that if the government makes it any more complicated and costly for schools, then schools may have to make the hard decision to simply stop accepting government payments. If that happens, then mil/vets won’t have any other educational options than to attend the very same greedy, profit-driven, predatory schools that the MOU was trying to protect the mil/vets from. Any government policy that limits individual choice is a bad policy.

  • How about this University Officials…. every time I use TA I have to agree to a 2 year active duty service committment. So assuming the class I am taking at your school is 3 credits I am committing 2 more years of my life to the military which likely means another deployment or two and I get $750. If my education is worth that much to me do you think you could accept a credit card?

    • K. Crawford

      Its not your credit card that they are concerned about… its forcing the school to be paid by dod’s credit card for normal TA payouts where the schools are concerned. Not that any of the schools owe your or should be concerned by the means in which you become able to pay them? It seems a moot and irrelevant point to argue that the schools should be forced to do something that is inherently bad for them just because you have to extend on your committement. I don’t understand where that sense of entitlement comes from…

      • kurt

        the benefits from serving are a luxury not a right.

  • RetiredCB

    I’m not basking the colleges/Universities, but in all honesty with all the higher learning institutions what percentage makes up their income. Less that 10%. It is either they get any form of income from this 10% or get nothing at all, and stop whining.

    • parkchunghee2011

      Excenneltn article and comment by REtiedCB. It’s about time someone put the schools to the “task” – What is not mentioned is that the schools will raise their tuitions everytime there is an increase in student aid numbers. This only compounds what Retired CB and the author of this article are saying – the schools are objecting to the will of Congress and the Department of Education for NON-ACADEMIC reasons. This claiim to maintain their so-called academic “authority” or integrity is just a smokescreen.

  • c-whit 13B

    As much as we, the service memer does for this country we should not have to worry about some university trying to stop our persuit of higher learning. It doesn’t matter what standards are implemented, or how the bills are paid to the school, so long as they are paid. Less than one percent of our country’s population is in the military. With such a low percentage I don’t beleive that it effects the institutions of education in such a negative way. If anyone has a problem with us going to school then it should be made law that every citizen will serve in the military, and that all of us get the educational benefits for doing so. That would place us all on the same level. I think that would only e fair.

  • Jim

    To most of the schools of higher accreditation you can forget credit for service or most on line credits. I got my BS degree from a high level state university and they didn’t give me an inch. In most classes I could clearly feel the hate for the military from not just students but also professors. It is not an easy road to take and don’t expect it. You will have to work as hard as you ever have in the service, at least as far as using your mind to complete projects and take test. Find your friends right away through the University VA center if they have one and learn to KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT! The more you think you know and express in class the less you will be liked and the harder they will make it for you. It is a rare instructor that actually likes a vet and the few that do are usually the young ones, new to the system.

    • KJH

      Jim – You’re advice is really good and right on target. That happened to me and I didn’t even see it coming right away. I happened to run into an instructor who was in the Air Force, I am retired US Army in my late fifties. She used to cut me off in the middle of a response and state, “we don’t have all day” and the other students laughed. Or she would not allow me to use my computer, because no one else could afford them. I have such awful hand writing because of service-connected injuries. The other students were mostly welfare moms and brought their kids to class with them. I am not one to rock the boat about such things…I know baby sitters are expensive. Your also right about “shutting ones mouth” or about expressing yourself in class or offering advice. After she gave me a “D”, she brought my GPA down drastically from 3.8 to 3.6. Now, I just show up to my other classes and just do the minimum required.

      • Frank

        You have to find a military friendly institution, not one that just states it is friendly to those in uniform.

    • seabee combat vet

      Rebel in full military regalia and take the stupid liberals out! Show up in a dress uniform and then ask why you are wrong and not them, and when no answer comes out, just say, I l,ove my country why not you?, nothing else!!!!!!!!!!!

    • jeff Schaefer

      I am currently a grad student at the University of Central Florida and I have experianced none of what you claim1 I received my BA in 2009, after being there since August 2008 and have found the other students, the faculty and even the administration VERY helpful and pro-military. Perhaps you should have scouted your school a little better

      • Kay

        Please explain why you should have to scout a school… My money is as green as the next and as a retired US Army member, I should not have a professor or another student ridiculing me for anything in class. It is supposed to be a learning environment, not a demeaning environment. At UMUC, I have run into a couple professors who were ‘passed over’ and then went on to other jobs only to take up adjunct professor positions (for online classes) who would make sure anything who owned up to either being in the military or in previously had sarcastic remarks made about any online blogging posted. Thankfully I only had a couple publicly shared remarks about my lack of understanding of the subject… amazing, somehow I still got an A in the business law class. So sorry can’t support, your statement… because I served my country I should now be careful on what school I should attend… What’s next that I have to screen to participate in. Thanks for your post.

        • Andrew

          You have too look at the culture of a college. You would not buy a car without learning about it, taking it for a test drive would you? Of course not so why would make such an important decision with out scouting it out. There are a lot of great school which bendover backwards to support veteran/military students. I know I work for one.

    • Frank

      Not sure why there is so much hatred in Academia for all things military, but you are at least 95% right on the money when it comes to the hate. My conjecture is it stems from the “free love” period of the 60’s when most of current crop of senior academia must have been hitting the pipe or bottle too hard and hating themselves so much for avoiding the draft as to transpose that hate on the very institution (the military) they sought to avoid.

    • USA_Ret

      I think it depends on the school, Jim. I received a lot of credit from UOP for military training, but the course there were expensive. AZ state and a community college in CT didn’t give me squat for the same training, but TA and GI Bill covered most of the cost. Over the course of three degrees I have encounter very few profs biased against us, but admit they are out there. Definitely agree that if there is a vet center, then use the connections and services.

    • WSU VET

      It should be that way why should we not participate and hide. There is nothing wrong with veterans in the class room.

  • Vet_Benefits_Watcher

    At a huge state school where the total TA population is less than 1% of the student body, it wouldn’t make any significant difference at all in the bottom line if the school simply stopped accepting TA recipients. So, why should the school have to spend any more time and money on TA students? Respectable, public institutions do it because it’s the right thing to do. They want to serve those who have served. After all, mil/vets are good students, and it’s good for the community to welcome them onto a college campus. But if push comes to shove and something’s got to give, schools will cut the services they provide to the smallest populations on campus – and that would be the military students.

    I think the point that the author is trying to make is that if the government makes it any more complicated and costly for schools, then schools may have to make the hard decision to simply stop accepting government payments. If that happens, then mil/vets won’t have any other educational options than to attend the very same greedy, profit-driven, predatory schools that the MOU was trying to protect the mil/vets from. Any government policy that limits individual choice is a bad policy.

    • dave

      why do i have to take a COLL101 course in online learning called Fundementals in online learning which is $750….seriously? it cost that much just to show most computer savvy people how to click and drag?

  • Bones

    Universities and colleges whining about giving credit for military educational experiences need to wake up. DoD didn’t write the ACE guide for determining college credit for military experience, the American Council on Education (ACE) did. The same people who produce the GED tests, have numerous programs for adult education, and accredit institutions of higher learning.

    If they don’t like accepting military credits then they shouldn’t be accepting GEDs either and if their accreditation is via the ACE they need to cease any claim of being accredited.

    • PAPPAJ


      Do you know how accreditation works? ACE is not an accrediting agency my friend. They accept member organization that are accredited thorugh an CHEA approved accrediting agency (such as The Higher Learning Commission). As a military member currently 75% complete with my Masters, this would be frustrating if my College chooses not to sign the MOU. My recommendation to military members is to act as an ambassador with your institution of higher learning to accept the MOU so you can continue to receive your benefits. It seems this will pay off in the end for my college, but as of this morning they still had not signed.

  • Patricia

    When I retired I started taking college courses. DO NOT make the individual mad that sends in your tuition paperwork……he would NOT send mine in and the VA told me there was nothing they could do. I stopped taking courses.

  • Brian

    Good, schools need to be held accountable for transferring credits. I transferred credits from a C.C. to ODU and they took only about 2/3 of my credits EVEN after telling me to follow the C.C.’s curriculum for that degree. So now I’m stuck with retaking classes that where already paid for and I wont be able to graduate before my GI Bill runs out. And thats doing no less than 5 classes at a time and 7 at most. I’m not happy but once you get this far you are a little too much vested…….

  • Eric

    Runaway government trying to control more private institutions. The money should go where the veteran chooses to go to school. Not the one the military wants it too.

    • seabee combat vet

      It’s not the military shooing the money, it is the Federal Government that put restrictions on School loans! Actually, they did NOT put restrictions on college loans, but took over the college loan industry!! Just like Government Motors, another failure from oblowhole. By the way, only one Bank in America is allowed to make a student loan and that bank is in Nebraska, who supported oblowhole care. What that had to do with education is questionable, but buried in oblowholes care!!!! This is why we need to revolt!!

      • penemyone

        You are wayyyyyy off base. Comment on the task at hand not your right wing rants!

    • penemyone

      You totally misunderstand the concept. If you are active, reserve, retired or ETS’, this MOU gets schools to get inline with your military experience, training and education, etc. If you don’t want schools to accept this, by all means don’t use government funds for your schooling!

  • Savina

    I only got 5 out of the 13 I took at my previous school because apparently a University doesn’t offer the same courses as Metropolitan state college of Denver. Top that off my Studio Art Introduction course which is just like their Studio Art introduction course, didn’t even transfer but my Choir course did?

    Oh btw I’m Chapter 35, I get NO tuition assistance at all, and the school still expects me to Follow DoD regulations, when the VA clearly states I don’t have to check in to tell them I’m going to school, I just have to call St. Louis.

    My Fiance however, is chapter 33, and the transition has been a pain in the ass. The college does NOTHING to follow the stipulations of this GI bill and they even made him Out of State for his first Semester, even though the GI bill clearly stated it was to be In state. Not only did they get $3,456 from the DoD but an extra $211 from my fiance.

    I agree that the DoD and colleges have to meet half way. DoD paperwork is a pain, and I see my Fiance getting batter with the struggles the school has over reading it, but seriously, the school can demand less of the students too. I went from a Montana state run university who expected my living stipends to be a Scholarship, and actually RAISED my tuition rate because they weren’t getting the $936 dollars directly into their pockets, to a Montana Private college where the VA lady didn’t dance about on her laurels and actually kept up with the new flood of VA and Military students coming through making sure our financial needs were met by both the school and the DoD or VA, to a College in a bigger city who doesn’t give a crap as long as they get paid. The literally expel students who’s spouses are military, because they “Lost the file” yet her military husband is fine because the DoD is paying them on time, but her benefits were 2 hours late.

    As a college student who was forced out of her major just to suite some stupid college demand, I agree with Piper and a few of the others, they really need to step up. If they don’t like what the DoD is putting up, then draft their own and meet half way with them. A Direct Deposit to the school perhaps is faster than waiting for a check (My Chapter 35 is a check and comes 1-5 days later than it should, my Fiance’s chapter 33 is Direct Deposit, and is never late), and perhaps give the recruiters or maybe the VA or DoD a list of Transferable credits you know so people don’t try to scam the system, or perhaps give a clarified course description with them so that way they have actually HAD to have done something with the course.

    Red tape sucks, on either side, so work together dammit! Both the DoD and Schools. I don’t care who’s jumping down who’s throats they’re all messed up with their paper work!

    • Savina

      PS: The random caps are there for stress since I don’t know how to bold words or italic or anything on here. Each has a different code set. I am well versed in English and if you’d like I can answer in Japanese if you still don’t understand.

    • Joe

      GI Bill does not determine residency at the college. As one who used TA and the GI Bill and now works in Higher Ed finance, I am well aware of the background on this MOU. DOD put out the MOU. Many schools asked for modifications or compromise in certain areas and DOD said no. A letter from ACE and NACUBO on the behalf of many schools went to the SecDef on Nov 21. To date, it has not been answered.

      • Savina

        “Your tuition and fees directly to the school for all public school in-state students. For those attending private or foreign schools tuition & fees are capped at $17,500 per academic year”

        GI bill says other wise, and We had a Marine core vet SUE the school because they weren’t covering what it stipulated, and won. Fine print gets everyone but he was told by St. Louis our branch, that the school should have registered him as In State not out of state. Horse’s mouth tells me other wise. The Post 9/11 and new updates to the VA benefits points out changes. The school didn’t keep up and it was affective in the middle of his summer term. He showed them 3 times his DD214 and our lease along with his drivers license, as the GI Bill VA office told us we needed to do at the start of his first semester at the school, and was Denied 3 times. It took a boot up their but and the threaten of a lawsuit before they re read his benefit plan and admitted there mistake. Now tell me again how I’m wrong?

        • MtnClmbrBkr

          The G.I. bill CANNOT determine your eligibility for in state tuition, which is determined by your residency in that state. It states that it will pay all costs for an in-state student’s education at a public school–that is not the same as saying that it will make them an in-state student.
          Now, one can be determined to be a resident of that state if they can prove that during their service in the military they established residency in that state and intended to be a resident but were outside because of military service. That falls under the rules for the Military, not the G.I. Bill. They are separate issues, don’t confuse them.

          • Savina

            Then tell that to the VA people who advised us, because they sure as hell got it wrong.

    • seabee combat vet

      But they will fawn for muslims and illegals! Go Figure. I now HATE AMERICA, as a 13.5 yr veteran, my veteran brother did the right thing, he left this assh.le country run by idiot dems that have no clue!!!!!!!

      • Savina

        That’s true. I still have to wait a year to be considered a Colorado Resident but I have a friend from Ireland who got residency in a week. It isn’t do to special handling, it was a deal made with his school in Ireland and the College he chose, other schools do that as well. Though they do tend to dodge rules when there is money involved.

        But please don’t make a racial slur, it frowns upon your argument, and as someone who’s talked with the Muslims in my school, many feel they are being treated above other students and it’s unfair. Also don’t throw an entire way of life out the window based on a few idiot people who went crazy over their beliefs and made it onto the news. They don’t speak for the entire Muslim population.

        As for the Illegals, some here in CO are trying to get Citizen ship, until then they’re illegal but the process with the immigration service are again Red Tape.

        That’s my problem with all of this, Red Tape. The government and school are known for their miles of paperwork, endless ping ponging between departments, and the constant “We lost this form” and it’s because some school have a population of over 100,000 and others don’t. If there was less legalese and more people actually trying to draft a comprehensible paper work for people to sign, there will be this kind of thing happening all over the place.

    • DAV victim

      Your not alone… that happen to me too… with GCU in AZ. They are still after me with debt I owe… but they got the VA cash that I don’t have the clue why they came after me for more hiddin tuitions fees. Is a scam for the school prey on us militaries free grants, and asking for more…

  • MikeJ

    I think I understand where the government is coming from here, ensuring that military students get fair treatment. But like almost every other overreach of government power, it was poorly executed. You can’t tell a college or university that they have to follow these incredibly strict rules and expect them to just fall in line. I just wish the government would learn that it exists at the will of the people, not the other way around.

  • VetSpouse

    It would be nice if everyone commenting on this site would have a copy of the actual memo. I have a copy and our institution requested a waiver and was granted a waiver due to not accepting a specific credit card. The only credit card the government uses is not accepted by my institution. This is actually due to the credit card company putting restrictions on how my institution does business; therefore we don’t do business with that particular credit card company. What you read is not a cut and dried as you would like it to be. There are so many more factors which go into every decision the DoD or any university makes. If the university you want to go to is worth anything, then I am sure there is a way to work out this entire situation. If they are not willing to work it out, then why would you want to attend a university who cares so little for the armed forces??

    • Joe

      Only one public university in Virgina has signed, ODU. Limits the choices just a bit if you’re in this area. DOD needs to delay the deadline to work out the compromises needed to move forward.

    • seabee combat vet

      You still have to accept the illegals or you will be a “Racist College.”

  • mesaie

    There should be no arguments about anything we gave our lives for everyone’s freedom to live in this free country. I think it is ridiculous how everyone is fighting us back when we are the reason why everyone is free.

    • foster21

      That does not mean that we should get a free pass to anything we want simply because we earned everyone else’s freedom. They are free to say, “No. We do not want that.” That is what it means to be free.

      • Savina

        Agreed. Sorry but my dad served 22 years of his life so I wouldn’t, and I feel horrible living off his Chapter 35 benefits, even though that is what they’re for. He earned them true, but he always taught me to work for what I want in life. Unlike my older brother who feels entitled that because he served, he should be treated a special way, my father is happy with a Thank You on veterans day.

        Yes you served, I thank you for that and you have my gratitude and respect but why do I have to work harder than you?

      • Trygve

        I think that we should just march right in and take what we want!! We earned it and if want something….well damn it…it should be ours!

  • Sgt.J. J. Lepre, DAV

    This really burns me up that the colleges and universities are whining and complaining about the acceptance of military credits ! I enlisted in 1983 with a Certificate in medical assisting, and later earned my Army COmbat Medical Specialist Diploma in 1984, my LPN in 1987 and now the military has paid for and states on my records that I have completed my RN associate degree in 1997, but he school refuses to release it-why ??? ! All because they refused to accept my military and civilian credentials ! Now that I’m a DAV I have to fight to get everything I need to find work again and the ACE refuses to acknowledge any of this. GO FIGURE !!!

    • seabee combat vet

      But!~ Because of oblowhole: will accept ALL ILLEGALS for IN STATE TUITION!! Hey Texas A and M, I live in NY and I want to attend your school and #1) I am a veteran, #2 )I speak english, #3) I have the credibility of silence for “HIPPA”, and guess what, I’m going to sue your asses for discrimination! How’s that sound you politically INCORRECT
      YOU TRULY SUCK!!!!! I could write K.M.A. but I go one step farther, “Kiss MY ASS. That is the true American way! Forgot? ILLEGAL MEANS JUST THAT!! Why are they given in State tuition benefits when Americans by birth are not allowed such priviledge?
      Oh yeah, this a,hole oblowhole allows it!!!Kick BUTT out NOW!!!!!!!!

  • MNW

    I don’t really get a lot of that. First off the whole credit card thing..seriously? I am in school and they give me a military rate, but when I make my payments it is via credit card to the school directly. So not only do they want the money, they want to tell people how they can pay for it? These schools need to get a grip. So the admin has to work hard because they are understaffed. Welcome to the real world, a lot of places are understaffed and have to work hard. Just be grateful you have a job. If the schools don’t want to deal with all the issues then just don’t accept military students and don’t accept military money either. Military members sacrifice their lives, many have paid the ultimate price, many have been wounded and are affected for life. Don’t these schools think that military members pay enough with their lives that they are going to complain over some late payments, credit card payments and some paperwork. Really?

  • iggi

    Look, Schools should not be forced to accept dumb ass credits that you and I know in most cases were not exactly brain intensive. Stop using your Vet status as a way to get some thing for nothing.

    • I’d say those credits may have not been earned in a very “brain intensive” manner as you refer to them, but then opening mail and pecking out a little data entry is not that that “labor intensive” either. So, I suppose the real question here is who is the one creating the problem? As for the dumb ass credits statement, you seem to be an authority on that subject, so maybe the DOD should look into that. ; )

    • seabee combat vet

      Ass.le, the government is allowing in state tuition to illegals and you bang a veteran? Come to my front door a.hole and see what a veteran knows and can contributute to society, your loss ! And the loss of another true American.
      I didn’t spend 13.5 yrs. in the Navspecwarcom to have you tell me that veterans shouldn’t have priority to education, but illegals should???
      iggi is your name as implied by iggie pop? Just a point of reference for your stupidity!!!

  • Roger

    Something like this is long overdue.

  • I think the original “Paperwork Reduction Act of 1974” should have specifically included additional BS instead of just paperwork. The credit card rule is probably set up to benefit someone’s uncle in the private sector that works for the credit card company.

  • USA_Ret

    There are untended consequences to the MOU. First, many public schools with the best credentials and lowest tuition rates are not signing, but the for-profits are all set to go. After DOD refused to compromise on school comments and requests, ACE and NACUBO sent a letter to the SecDef on November 21:

    Currently there has not been a response to that letter.

    The population that will be hurt if DOD does not budge are the service members using TA. Many are in the middle of their programs and will be required to shift to higher cost for-profits or stop attending. The number of students using TA at any given public school (off base) is insignificant to it’s revenue.

    I’ve used TA, I’m in higher ed, and watched this develop over the last several months. It’s a shame DOD does not have the flexibility needed to extend and fix the MOU, since the ones being disadvantaged are the service members trying to get an education between deployments, training rotations, and other military duties. This last minute stuff is a disservice to our military students.

    • Neva

      I just started working on my MLS. 3 classes into it, do they realize that the time and effort we put in toward picking a school for higher education takes time, especially with our schedules. I don’t want to transfer and am not even sure if I’ll be able to transfer.

      • USA_Ret

        Someone has to ‘blink’. The schools wrote Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta over two weeks ago. I really hope DOD delays the implementation date to allow time work out differences. The list of schools who have signed is here: Hope your school is on the list, Neva.

  • claude

    Hi I am trying to get a schooling because the military gave a GED from a written test but I have no High School Education so I think the gov. owe me a School or College Education it was like beening drafted in the Military. under a spell. it was the Army that I was in today I am a mentaly ill from the Military.
    I went to AIU University for two month and I think I need the Schooling from the gov. Military School.

    • joan

      The Army OWES you a college education? YOU joined the Army without a high school diploma and they offered you the GED. If you joined the Army and are a part of the GI Bill then they OWE you the tuition benefits promised you. If you are disabled from your service then they OWE you your medical benefits. But my friend the Army does not OWE you a college education or any other thing that you did not earn.
      I’m just not sure where people today get the idea that the Army is some all inclusive nanny who must take care of their every need from a-z, the Army owes them everything. We are still adults people and responsible for taking care of our own selves and families. We do have benefits through our Army service or affiliation but We Are Responsible For Ourselves!!!

      • jazzy


      • Dan

        Also agreed. The kinder, softer, military is hurting us all

      • Rattlerjake

        Obviously, claude, you joined the military simply for what you could get out of it. Besides that, reading your comment tells me that you should be washing dishes somewhere and college tuition would be money wasted.

        Bravo Joan, well said!

        • The real question is the ARMY really get what they paid into?? Or did he let his buddies take up the slack? I really hope that was the case.

      • Dean

        Well said Joan.

      • ISJD


    • Ralph Monroe

      From your comments one thing is obvious, you are in desperate need of some “schooling”. Also I don’t think the military had anything to do with your mental state. If you served honorably and signed up for the GI bill you can can go to college on the Gov’s dime. If not then you don’t desrve anything and shouldn’t expect it. Go get a job!

    • Mayes

      Dont feed teh trolls :)

    • Bill Foster

      You need somebody’s help really bad.

    • Frank

      Claude is lieing, he has never served in the Army or any military organization; his coments are a idiotic attempt to make fun of those that have served their country. Claude is a troll, and you guys fell for his immature humor.

    • rich

      Government doesnt “owe” an education to anybody, in fact colleges are flooded with marginal and inept students who often drop out once the level of work begins. College is a privilege not a right. You should have prior HS grades to get in. All vets who honorably served should be eligible under various GI bill formats to attend if they have the prior backround. A HS drop out should get a certified GED before even thinking about college, or better yet…….just go back to real school and participate and graduate. Lots of dummies graduating today because of the money and numbers game, This guy Claude is a fake.

    • luis robles

      what???? the Goverment owes you?? what do you think you just going to join the Military and start demanding your college education?? i say no! the govement does not owe you anything as far as am concerned you came in or joined because you love your country not because of the great benefits!

    • Tracy

      I’m sorry, but by reading your complaint above, I think you still do not have a High School education, much less the necessary G2 to get into college.

  • Vince

    Quit yer yappin and help the vets. WE put our lives on the line for you.

    • Mark

      I wouldn’t dismiss quite that harshly Vince. HOWEVER, PIPER SHOULD lighten up a bit. Seeing as how she is employed by a large university that most probably is partially federally funded or at least has the capability for governmental grant status, and the fact that her husband is full time active duty and STUDYING FOR HIS DOCTORATE, indicated to me that they are quite well off financially. Her vocalizations at length lead me to believe that she is quite well studied. Her knowledge of the GI bill alone would lead me to believe that she has had a great amount of tutoring in the educational field related to military and that she might have been military at one time herself. Armed with all of that associated military background and well read educational experience might lead one to believe that PIPER SHOULD UTILIZE ALL OF THAT WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE OF THE SYSTEM AND HER FLUID USE OF THE PRINTED TEXT AND THE PROBLEMS IN THE SYSTEM SHE IS SO AQUAINTED WITH and put it to good use by helping to solve the problems that she is so well versed on rather that sit at a computer and try to show how smart she is !!!

      • Chris

        So because you think that Piper is educated, she should do the work from which you would benefit? Also, what does her financial status have to do with anything?

  • Mark

    For those like iggi, there is no rationalization. They see Veterans as low life bums that couldn’t do anything else. Put those of iggi’s caliber on the same job with a Veteran and the iggi’s will get used as a wipe cloth and thrown away. Iggi’s are afraid of someone that knows something “real world” more than they do.

    • Erma white

      I know what iggi means and you should be ashamed of yourself. Why do people like you always want to reduce yourself to the lowest common denominator.

  • ISJD

    Can anyone clarify for me if, when using the GI Bill, Out of State Tuition is applicable???

    • Heather

      The school’s rules for resident/non-resident tuition are the same regardless of GI Bill. So yes, it’s possible that you’re paying out of state tuition and using your GI Bill. Most schools will, however, grant residency to service members and their spouses, understanding that they move often. On that note, you’re likely not active duty if you’re using your GI Bill, so that note may not help you.

      • ISJD


  • Rose Twomey

    Most schools vying for Military to attend are not only for profit but not accredited and their is no FASFA in place because these institutions are literally degree mills. I know this because some states, like Indiana, Louisiana, Utah,,etc, do not have laws set in place to protect the students who fall victim of these institutions due to failure of the DOD and the students to research these schools. These degree mills are on all the time. I believe the schools having a hard time accepting the new regs are the degree mills that virtually take your money and give u a degree. Many of our politicians earned their degrees thru LaSalle University located in Louisiana. LaSalle is a degree Mill and we taxpayers paid for it. If anything, if the school does not offer federal student aid, Not financial aid, then it is not accredited. Classes won’t transfer. Basically because there really is no curriculum.

  • Leader

    The transfer of credits from military experience is a joke. I just retired, serving 26 years in the Army, 3 years of that as a Drill Instructor, 5 years as a Primary Leadership Develepment Instructor and manager, 2 years as a First Sergeant, and 4 years as the Course Manager for the First Sergeant and Battle Staff Courses yet…………for my degree I have to take a class on Motivation and Leadership? Here is the course description. You tell me if you think my NCOES experience should should give me credit: “This course focuses on human motivation and leadership skills required to effectively manage groups and individuals. Topics include basic motivation principles, leadership styles, workplace stress and conflict, and the dynamics of group development.” Give me a break!

    • Andy Heil

      I also retired from the Army in Feb 2011, I am studying criminla justice and brought with me 70 credits from the Army. I was given 12 credits toward the Associates Degree. I have the Military Police course (which at that time the training was for law enforcement not combat support), Military Police Investigators course, PLDC, BNCOC, Security Manager, Physical Security. Of course employment is a joke with all my 32 years of training and experience.

      • Jeff


    • Ed m. seabee

      how lame whatever school you went to is nuts. i went to phoenix online they gave me 32 credits and i was active for only 5 and had earned i believe somewhere around 60. i hope things change for you after the new year and thing are supposed to change with the GI BILL read the article from this i reiceived 4 days ago… hopes this does it for you.

    • Yvette Cleveland

      I haven’t been in the military all that long and will be getting out within a year but I have been in the private sector as a Human Resource Professional for 15 years and the training the military gives is far different from what is needed and required in the private sector. Once military minded personnel realize that these are two different worlds a great deal of what is being said will change. A lot of what you used in the military you will not use in the private sector. The way you talk and treat soldiers will put a company in court with a law suit quicker than you can say HOOAH… Take the course and see the difference, I’m having an issue thinking like the military when I’m so use to be a professional in the private sector shaking my head thinking this can’t be how they train people and what is the training like when it’s time to become a civilian?? I’ve watched my father who served 33 years retired Naval Officer and brother 25 years retired Navy make that transition and it wasn’t easy. So what the military sees as motivation, leadership style, workplace stress and conflict is far different then what everyday civilians do.. I’m returning to my profession as a Human Resource professional the office that your resume will have to cross the more you have interaction with civilians the better… Just a little advise…

      • Robert

        Hello Yvette, I actually have to differ with you on this one, but I do understand why you are thinking the way you do. I am a Human Resources NCO in the U.S. Army, but I also work alongside the DoD civilian HR counter-part in a DoD Agency. In this DoD Agency, the military only makes up about less than 5% of the work force. Therefore, I provide HR assistance to civilians and the to the few military that I have. Furthermore, you are basing your military experience on narrow view of the Army HR world (more than likely from an S/G-1 shop). Please let me educate you on the Army HR world. S-1 and G-1 shops are only a fraction of what we do. Furthermore, we serve as executive assistance to military and civilian leaders. More We operate out of U.S. embassies worldwide serving diplomats of the U.S.A. I have worked in several different aspects of our job/the “civilian sector” and the two correspond very closely. Additionally, I have my B-HRM and M-HRM in the study, and currently working on my Doctorates so I do know a little bit on the subject…… just saying……….

  • VAOfficial

    As a VA Official in one of the top schools in GA, this is more than anyone of you commenting thinks. If you read the MOU agreement (about 50 pages of addendum), you will see that DOD is handing the school off on their responsibilities, as well as the students. This is more than cc payments. I support military students on their duties all the way, but I think the the new MOU is a bunch of nonsense. It worked fine before.

  • babykiller 1cav65

    godallmighty what a bunch of crybaby heros

    • Steve Parker

      You must still be sucking off your daddy.

    • Seabees rule

      you are a moron

    • mike

      Someone ought to take that e-mail name of yours and shove it up your back side (_ _ _) people like you are what gives the Military a bad name and image!

  • Lynn3765

    From an alternate view here..I have never had problems with transfer credits, credits given for military service or the acceptance and use of either TA or GI Bill funds. I did a credit assessment through my service and then took that assessment to several different universities, actually matriculating in to the university that accepted the most credits. From there, I transferred schools just due to cost, mid-degree, and all credits transferred with me. It takes legwork and analysis to find the right combination, most of which I did on my own and didn’t just trust the word of the education officer or even the VA. Generally, if “you” have an issue with military accepted credits, like the one who was being forced into a leadership course, a letter or even a meeting with the department head can usually solve the problem; I did this a few times and was able to get classes waived in lieu of the service credits. Don’t be afraid to challenge the school but do it in the proper manner.

  • David

    S most universities do get state and federal funding. I would thiank that if the fedral funding would stop then they would sign.Universites are more interested in making money from each student. Veterana need more alternatives ,just like them that are facing learning disablites. As avetmyslef 57 im in chpt 31 we get less then anyone, some of ours went to pay for the “wow” program. if schools do not comply then vets should be directed to other instutuions, that will. we are talking about billions of dollars here that a univeristy would make. Marine vet 73-80

  • hrk

    I am receiving tuition assistance thru the Air Force. My school has told me that it is “illegal” for them to sign it. This is so frustrating. I am in the middle of my 3rd year of pharmacy school, I worked really hard to get this scholarship, and now the school says they will not sign it. It’s not like I can just transfer to another pharmacy school, since I am about done anyways, I don’t even think another pharmacy school will take a transfer who is mostly done with curriculum anyways. agghhh!!!

  • Dolores

    To the one who believes the Army OWES him. I am amazed the Army allowed you in, if in fact you served in the Army. If you did, I wonder if your discharge was for administrative reasons for, well, failure to complete tasks, imcompetence, failure to attain the level of training required for your MOS. As I said, just wondering. Quit your whining and go get a job.

  • Jasper

    I spent 6 years in the Army JAG Corps as a legal specialist. I graduated from Basic Training, Legal Specialist Course (distinguished honor grad), Court Reporter School (three month school, honor grad), Warrior Leadership Course (commandant’s list), Air Assault (honor grad), Combat Life Saver course (commandant’s list), and Re-dictation school (Distinguished honor grad). Oh, and I deployed to Afghanistan twice where I was injured (40% disability), and have a top secret security clearance. When I got out, after only 6 years, I was in charge of the entire enlisted side of criminal defense services at my local base. I got out and immediately found employment as a litigation paralegal at a good local law firm. Yes, military justice is different than civil justice, but not that much — no more of an adjustment than when I transferred from environmental law to criminal law. When I decided to use my GI Bill and go to college, I was assured that my background would give me a lot of transfer credit.

    Just found out today that I received a grand total of 3 transfer credits — and of all things, those credits were for “physical conditioning” from basic training.

    I’m pissed. If I want a paralegal degree, I need to start from absolutely nothing and take prelaw 101. Unbelievable.

    When my dad returned from Vietnam where he served as a triage medic during the Tet Offensive, he was told he didn’t qualify to even drive an ambulance. I thought things had changed, but I guess not.

    At least on the positive side, I don’t have to take a gym class…

    • student

      try Wayland Baptist University – you will get a min of 12 credits and likely lots more

    • REAL Soldier

      Commandants list from CLS class? You fail at lying. You can blame your college for not giving you credit. I hold two MOSs have completed NCOES through ALC and my college gave me over 40 credits.

    • Ang

      So… then, just go to a college that takes military credits- gees people. There are a lot of them.

  • g i no more poo

    shout the dirty sorry facts out loud and dont stop till they drop.

    this two way rhetoric has been going on for ever and a new buch of gi get corn holed every day of the week.

    people dont want to beleave nor hear the hard ugly truths .

    golry , glory halouja they gona, ram it up into ya ..

    stop crying ?? i hear republicans wreaking the working class a gain.

    from every lectern and pulpit shout the facts out till they all fall down or change the rotten status quo..